Neighborhood Economics: Unifying Faith and Finance for Community Empowerment

Venture with us as we traverse the profound terrain where financial acumen meets spiritual fervor, guided by none other than Reverend Sidney Williams Jr. His transformation from the bustling trading floors of Wall Street to the sacred echo of the pulpit unfolds a narrative that binds the pursuit of wealth with ethical imperatives. Together, we grapple with the paradoxes of the Protestant work ethic and confront societal disparities, painting a picture of a theology that upholds human dignity against the backdrop of systemic injustice.

Peel back the layers of community influence as we scrutinize the intersection of charity, justice, and the ethics of profit. Our conversation extends beyond simple acts of giving, prodding the responsibilities of financial custodians to foster equitable growth in marginalized communities. We dissect the FISH principles that Reverend Williams champions, revealing an ingenious blueprint for faith groups to harness wide-ranging capital forms in their quest for societal transformation—proving that the power of a united congregation can indeed move mountains.

Our journey crescendos with personal revelations on leadership, emotional intelligence, and the healing that comes from self-forgiveness and shared stories. I recount the lessons imbued from exchanges with trailblazers like Kevin Rosalie and look forward to the promise of the upcoming Neighborhood Economics Conference. Prepare to reimagine the future of local economies, as we spotlight the potential that resides within every community, ready to be unlocked, one block at a time. Join us on this expedition that promises to reshape your perspective on wealth, worth, and the web of connections that bind them.

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Transcript

Joel: 0:33

What if investing in each other could change the world? I'm Joel Skeen with bizradious, and this is the Mindful Marketplace. Hey, all thanks for watching. I just wanted to quickly inform you about my financial services agency, which operates in the life insurance space. So we help families with debt elimination plans and create tax-favored retirement solutions. We support small businesses, nonprofits, worker-owned co-ops, unions and social enterprises with employee and member benefits. We offer white glove insuratec services to community banks, credit unions, financial co-ops and CDFIs, and we provide enduring acceleration and downside capture strategies for all kinds of investors. Check out the link in the video description and enjoy the show.

Sidney : 1:25

All right, all yours.

Joel: 1:28

You've got a bunch of titles. You've got Dr. Reverend keynote speaker author. I'll call you Doc Rev, if that works okay for you. Yes, but as Reverend Sidney Williams Jr, I'm really, really grateful to get to talk with you today about the work you're doing, about your writing, about your perspective on things and also about neighborhood economics and why you want to be involved in everything. I guess I first kind of want to dig in a little bit on your. I know you went to Howard University and HBCU and then you immediately went into Wall Street and then you work in interdenominational theology. So tell me a little bit about how that all happened and how that all works together. That's a very diverse background.

Sidney : 2:21

Yeah, sure.

Sidney : 2:24

So the kind of sort of weave the narrative.

Sidney : 2:26

I preached my first sermon at 15 and felt the deep sense of call to serve the church, but also felt the deep sense of responsibility for my family and making sure that I wasn't practicing poverty.

Sidney : 2:42

And so I chose to focus on a career in finance and did well, but always wrestled with what to do with the calling and where that fits in and when it fits. In 2004, my mom was diagnosed with terminal illness and kind of made a decision then that it's time to give back to serving and answering the calls. So enrolled in seminary while still running a venture fund and just really finally ultimately made the decision that I wanted to spend the rest of my life serving others and I was very grateful for the career I had, but made a choice to give that up and serve the church full time, including being a missionary in South Africa for a year and a half, and over time I saw the two kind of coming back together, that there was a deep need for an understanding of finance and economic development in the church, and so I found myself uniquely positioned to bring those experiences from my career and to serve the church in a much greater capacity than I even imagine.

Joel: 3:48

That's pretty incredible. I'm not nearly as accomplished as you and I would never pretend to be, but I had a similar journey in a way. My dad was a pastor. My aunt was a missionary to Sierra Leone in Africa. I grew up in the church and I really felt the calling of helping people who were less fortunate than me, helping the least of these, and that's what led me into studying sociology, led me into being a case manager for chronically homeless folks and running a food bank and doing that type of work in the Detroit area.

Joel: 4:20

But I also ran into some problems in the nonprofit world where it was difficult to make enough of a living, where I didn't almost need the services that we were giving out to people each and every week, and so I also moved into financial services, built a business and agency there, but always still felt the calling to do something that sort of blended those two and sort of brought in my intellectual endeavors and my social justice endeavors along with the personal and along with the soul endeavors. I'm curious what that interplay and balance has been for you of the intellectual endeavors and of those, I guess, soul endeavors.

Sidney : 4:56

Yeah, I mean, I think unfortunately the way the academy is organized when I was at UPenn, you know the business school is separate. In fact there is no seminary in the University of Pennsylvania. In many schools where there is a seminary and a business school, there's very little interaction between the two. But I believe, regardless of your doctrinal convictions or religious affiliations, we all have a measure of faith and that measure of faith shows up in ways, consciously or unconsciously, and how we think about money and economics. I think for me I'm committed to the intersection of economics and theology and how that plays out not only in the life of the church but how that plays out in our communities and particularly in our neighborhoods, which kind of connects me to the work that Kevin and Rosalie are doing, because faith and economics really do impact how we live out our experiences in community with each other.

Joel: 5:56

Yeah, tell me more what you mean about that.

Sidney : 5:59

I mean, I think on some level, you know, we've got Max Weber and a Protestant work ethic, this idea that you know, if I work hard I won't be poor, right, that if I budget well, I save well. You know, I work hard, I'm going to prosper. But the reality is there are systems of injustice, systems of inequity that deprive people from being their best selves and living their full potential. And so when you have a theology that honors the humanity of all people, it forces you then to look through a different filter, different lens, not so much an individual lens that attributes success solely to work ethic, but one that looks at a system that says, perhaps, maybe we really ought to examine why the system isn't working for more people. And then, for those who the system is not working for, what is our call to justice? What is our responsibility?

Sidney : 7:01

We started our soup kitchen in 2013 in Marstown, new Jersey, and folks are really confused because this is a wealthy county. We don't need this. In fact, one of my older church members said to me he says, pastor, if you stop feeding people, they'll get jobs. And so there's this theology of survival of the fittest that you know, if you work hard, you'll do well, and if you're not doing well it's because you're not working hard. And so I find sometimes the most progressive liberal thinkers are extremely conservative and and somewhat Darwinian when it comes to finance and money, and so you know, sort of weaving those two things together is critically important.

Joel: 7:40

Did you experience? I guess it almost feels like the position you're describing. You might be receiving pushback in some ways from both sides, as it were. Is that something that you experienced?

Sidney : 7:52

Yeah, I mean, I think there are those who you know I work with on Wall Street, with those I went to business school with, who are entrenched in this sort of Milton Friedman perspective that you know everything should sit around the shareholder, that all of our work is about, you know, increasing profits for those who have sufficient investment capital engaged in the marketplace. And while that is the task, the task is so much more than that. Right, I think that's the bare minimum to meet the shareholders needs. There are others at the Harvard Business School, like Professor Cotta, who talk about stakeholders, where it's not just the shareholders but it's also the employees, the customers, community members, the environment.

Sidney : 8:34

So it's more than simply I made enough money for my shareholders, and so I think on the business side of things, it's widening the lens and helping people see it's much bigger than just profit and loss. And then, on the other hand, there's this utopian ideal of the line in the land living together in harmony. That is a future state. But in the meantime, how do we live out the reality of the line in the land, or the wolf in the sheep? I love the part where Jesus says be wise as a serpent, harmless as a dove and helping us understand the reality of what it looks like to live among wolves. There are predatory lenders, there are predatory companies that seek our destruction and we've got to learn how to mitigate that risk and navigate these very difficult waters of capitalism.

Joel: 9:29

Yeah, well, as you're talking, it reminds me of a quote by the Dom Helder Camara. You know when he says when I give food to the poor, they call me a saint, and when I ask why they are poor, they call me a communist.

Joel: 9:42

It does seem like there is a bit of a situation where we love the idea of doing charity work, of helping, and I think that's great. Obviously, I spent the first seven years, really, of my career doing that, but there does seem to be that that pushback seems to me could come from both the you know, some people that you may be in communion with in your faith, and then also people that you're in business with. That would push back on the idea that this is actually a calling that you would have is to do this work of justice in the name that you do it in, you know.

Sidney : 10:23

Yeah, you reminded me of something that a mentor once shared with me, and it's the translation of the word love in Hebrew versus Latin. And the word love in Latin is charitas, which is where we get the word charity from right, which takes on its own meaning In Hebrew the word Tezek, which implies justice or obligation, depending on how you translate first Corinthians 13,. It can have a very different trajectory. Right, if charity is patient, if charity is kind of charity keeps no wrongdoing. That's a different measure of love than if we're talking about justice is patient.

Sidney : 11:03

Justice, kind of justice, is long suffering. So you know what are we committed to? Is it just giving up our free time, you know, giving what's left over? People oftentimes come to our pantry giving us food they no longer need or food that they don't want to eat themselves. That's not quite the mission of our pantry. Our pantry is we want people to have the food that we also want. Right, and so justice is making sure people have quality food, nutritious food. Charity is well, I'm not eating it, so you can have it.

Joel: 11:35

Right right, it's the scraps, it's the leftovers, it's the things that we don't want anymore and, well, you know, may as well not waste it. You know, in a way, one thing that I was really impressed with with you two is because I know there's a lot of sometimes there can be division around things that they don't need to necessarily be around, and it does. I mentioned, you know, I saw that you had. It seems like it's important in your ministry to be open and inclusive to both people of your faith, both people that are you would call believers, but also people who are not. Why is that so important to the work you do?

Sidney : 12:12

Well, I read the book, right, there's. This book says that God so loved the whole world Right. So I think we skip past that, right, and God just loved the people who believe, but he loved all of creation Right. So I think we read the book carefully. There's a mandate, there's an obligation for us to love all people, regardless of social, political, ethnic, racial differences. There's a command you know Jesus says even love your enemies. Right, that's what the book says. It's not always what we practice and I think if we want the fullness of the joy that the book offers, we've got to be willing to experience and live out radical hospitality. Yeah.

Joel: 13:00

It reminds me of a saying I've heard before is that, even like all, all knowledge is God's knowledge. You know, all love is God's love. And so, yeah, I think that's great, because so often things we could be working together on things that we all agree on, but instead we spend our time focusing on the stuff that we might disagree on. You know, you I'm curious when we get into kind of the economics of things, because I know that's a lot of where your study, where your work and where your writing has been. You know, as things stand now, how do you see your theology and the marketplace working together?

Sidney : 13:35

So there's this dirty word called risk right, and it always fascinates me how we measure risk. When I was in business school, we felt like we could do that through mathematical analysis. We could determine the beta of something or the volatility of something and that would give us a quantifiable measure of risk. But in practice, risk becomes very qualitative right. Risk becomes qualitative based on the people I'm investing in, my relationship or my experience in a particular region or territory or neighborhood, and so we're not honest about some of the discriminatory practices that are built in our risk assessment profile. And so, at a bare minimum level, it's really assessing what is risk. And then how do we mitigate risk Right? One of the key ways to mitigate risk is to increase our knowledge of a particular sector or a particular relationship with people. But when we look at the residential segregation that still exists in our neighborhoods racial segregation that still exists in many of our communities that then sort of increases the risk level and reduces the risk tolerance because, like I don't know those people, I don't know that neighborhood, I'm not comfortable in that space. And yet the challenge for those of us in the finance field it's to be able to not only qualify the risk, but to quantify the risk and then develop risk mitigation strategies. That's what fund managers get paid to do to mitigate risk. And so when we don't invest in a particular sector or a particular neighborhood because we don't understand the risk, then perhaps we shouldn't be responsible for managing that capital Right. So I think there's a moral and an ethical responsibility for those who manage capital to come up with risk mitigation strategies to figure out, well, how would I invest in this community, how would I invest in this neighborhood, what would I need to do to offset some of that risk?

Sidney : 15:41

We do that in less developed countries where we want to advance economic stability in various regions. We know how to do that. But within our own domestic policy, within our own economic strategies, in our own country, we seem to lose all those strategies, right. And so then we have whole neighborhoods going with not only a lack of investment but divesting out of neighborhoods because of risk, right. And then this other sort of dirty word return, right, what is a proper return? And so in business school that's a quantitative measure, right. We look at the risk-free rate, we look at the market rate and then we determine the volatility and then that then measures what kind of return we want. But when you look at payday lenders, you know, is a 600% return excessive?

Sidney : 16:34

Right Like how do we decide when return? How much return is enough? Right, auto lenders who lend people to with low credit, the imputed interest rate sometimes a north of 50%? How much return is enough? And is it justifiable by the risk or can we come up with other risk strategies? So I think we need to have more of a robust dialogue about risk and return. And then I think there are also people who feel very confident about giving out grants, but oftentimes those grants are woefully insufficient to move the needle. And maybe there's somewhere in between our philanthropic granting and our impact investing to say maybe I can invest at a lower return because I better understand the risk, so I can really move the needle in some neighborhoods. So I think that's the work that Kevin and Rosalie are committed to, of creating this dialogue with neighborhood economics. To say how do we invest capital in areas here before that we've considered to be high risk?

Joel: 17:42

Well, and I love that you're I do feel like you're kind of hitting on the heart of it with this risk and return idea, because of you know what we're really talking about in a lot of ways is interest and debt.

Joel: 17:55

And you know, as you obviously know, the history of debt when it comes to things like the Jubilee year, where land would be returned, debts would be canceled every seven to 50 years, and how that went away with the Roman Empire and with the oligarchies that formed.

Joel: 18:15

And you know we're in a situation now even where, when you look at even groups like you know, the World Bank or IMF or many of these other big institutional lenders within the country, they still charge interest and sometimes very high rates of interest, but they've put themselves in a position where they no longer actually have that risk anymore, where their risk is backed up and if you know someone does default on the loans, they're going to get bailed out by something, you know, some institution even larger and more powerful.

Joel: 18:44

You know there's a and you mentioned kind of those social relationships with money. Money can be a social lubricant in a way. It can be a way to facilitate social relationships, as I don't know if you've read debt the first 5000 years by David Graber, but he has this quote near the end of the book where he says ultimately, debt is a corruption of a promise. It's a promise corrupted by math and violence, and I'm just curious your thoughts on the, on the, on the debt situation that many families or maybe our country is in right now, and your perspective on that.

Sidney : 19:21

So I think there's there's two ways of thinking about debt. One is where I am completely disinterested in the borrower and more interested in the return of capital right so I will lend you money that is inadequate to fulfill your business plan. I will lend you money at rates that are unprofitable for your business, knowingly, right, with full expectation that not only will I get all of my capital back, I'm actually going to gain by the possession of your assets. Right so that's predatory lending. I'm lending you money with an expectation that you will default, right, right. And then there is lending where you know it's considered to be concessionary or catalytic, where I'm going to lend you a sufficient amount of capital to actually fulfill your business plan at a rate that allows you to actually earn a profit, so that, yes, I can get a return on my, on my, on my capital, and I'm honest about the return I need to make, right. So I think it's very careful about sort of how we think about lending, you know, and what is the goal?

Sidney : 20:36

Unfortunately, in many cases for people that that lack in access to capital, they will borrow at every rate and on every term, and we engage in predatory lending almost as if I'm playing the lottery, like I know this loan is destructive, but you know I have a one in million chance of winning the lottery, so I'm going to take this debt at all costs. And I think that's kind of where payday lenders show up right. They are the sole source of credit for many people, and so people then engage in those predatory lenders hoping somehow, by some act of God, some miracle, that they'll find a way to get caught up, but in actuality end up in perpetual bondage to this debt. I think it's critical for those of us that identify as progressive or wanting to do sort of some sort of social impact. Let's think of other ways to provide capital that is is is restorative. Taking almost an equity lens right, but there's nothing that equity is. I have a relationship. I'm willing to bear some of the risk right, as opposed to doing this at no risk to myself.

Joel: 21:49

Yeah, we had on a. I had on a guest who she had. Her name is Amanda Claypool. She had written an article called why your debts not meant to be repaid and she made this, this really interesting point, that you know your debt. You know whether I hold a car loan or a mortgage loan, especially consumer debt right when you're talking about a business loan where you can get a higher ROI than your interest.

Joel: 22:10

You know if you're buying an asset with debt, that's great. But when you're buying a commodity with debt, that's usually where it's much more difficult and people get trapped. Because your debt is their asset. They make money every time you lose money. That interest has to go somewhere. And I also thought it was interesting when he talked about how interest is only actually charged across classes. You know, when poor folks lend them lend their neighbors or their family members or anything some money, they usually don't charge each other interest. And when the wealthy lend each other money, whether it's institutionally or individually, they typically also don't charge interest.

Joel: 22:46

It's really only when the rich or the wealthy are charging, are lending to someone poorer. That that's when that interest takes place. We could, I could, I could go on debt for forever, but there's other stuff I want to ask you about, but the illustration what you just said there's a lack of relationship.

Sidney : 23:04

right? If there is a relationship, I'm willing to reduce the cost of debt. Right? If there isn't a relationship, then my risk assessment is elevated, so I'm going to charge a higher rate.

Joel: 23:19

Exactly, Exactly. One thing that you've had your book is on fishing differently, or I hope I'm saying it right. I didn't write down the name of the title, but you have this acronym FISH, and I'm curious if you could break down what that means and just kind of give us a brief overview of the principles of that.

Sidney : 23:39

As I transition into ministry, as any banker or, you know, finance person would, I want to understand what are the sources of capital that make churches successful. And you know, pretty much every church throughout the world relies primarily on faith capital. That is what members give when they gather for worship. And in many cases that resource is insufficient to do the work that that congregation is called to do. And so then I look deeper at sort of, if it's not there in the offering plate, you know what other sources of capital are available to these congregations? The second and most valuable source within congregations is intellectual capital, the ideas, the creativity, the talents. And then I began to study why that intellectual capital is often not acknowledged or not resourced. And, as Professor Princeton she's now emeritus Professor Deborah Hunziger, who wrote a book called Bear in the Unbearable, and in her book she talks about cognitive dissonance, where people may be a part of a local congregation, they may even give financially in their ties or their offerings, but intellectually disengaged, checked out right, they've already begun to experience cognitive dissonance and inevitably what's keeping them from engaging intellectually is the trauma they have either experienced in that congregation or maybe the trauma they brought with them to the congregation, but nevertheless that is a source of capital that is often untapped.

Sidney : 25:22

And then S is social capital. So every congregation exists in a particular context and a particular community, and I discovered a lot of faith leaders limit their vision and their resources to what's within the walls of the church and oftentimes missing the available resources in the region or community or city. And so if you believe that there is a higher powered work that is not dependent on our works, but rather there is an actual divine plan for restoration, then I think the challenge becomes how do we tap into that social capital? Or I think what Robert Putnam talks about is sort of reweaving the fabric of our neighborhoods. Right, you know, there may be so many other side of town across the train tracks, who cares about what you care about, but our relationship has not been established. And so part of the social capital is okay. Who do I need to connect with outside of my sort of hub or intimate circle of friends?

Sidney : 26:26

And then, finally, human capital, right, which is what is the output? Right, so I know most, you know, christians or faith peer-person of the faith, sort of preach, a gospel that we can't measure the impact of, right, but I think for the marketplace. They need to see a measurable outcome. Like, if I were to invest philanthropic dollars, investment dollars, time, intellectual capital, what is the human output? What can I see as a result?

Sidney : 27:00

So, whether that's providing housing for the homeless, whether that's helping with recidivism or people in recovery, like, how do I measure the fruit of this work? Right? And so if you read the book, it says you know people need to see our work, people need to see the fruit. And so if you're going to work with unbelievers, you know they're not going to buy into what they can't see. They want to see what's the fruit, what's the evidence that whatever it is you're teaching or preaching is actually working. So that's the ancient fist. So we created that back in 2004 and have just kind of leaned into how do we teach it so that you get faith leaders and congressional leaders to look beyond just what shows up in the Archbishop's Plate on Sunday. But how do you tap into the abundance of resources available?

Joel: 27:51

Yeah, it does seem to really kind of encapsulate a lot of different ideas. As you said, it almost sounds like it's sort of the outpouring or outcome of you being both a pastor and a CEO at the same time Is that. Would you say that's true, or how have those two things interplayed? I am curious about that.

Sidney : 28:11

Well, I mean. So in 2008, I brought 30 pastors to the Wharton Business School just so I was really trying to answer some questions that I had, because I couldn't quite understand how the vision of me and these congregations would ever come to pass using the model they were using right Gathering, you know, a group of people who are barely surviving on a Sunday morning to talk about a God. We've never seen that somehow this is going to be this manifestation of all this community transformation. I couldn't make the connection of how the preaching and the worship you know actually brings about a viable business plan to actually do the stuff we're talking about, and so I brought these 30 pastors to Wharton Business School to sit at my professor's feet and have a dialogue.

Sidney : 28:55

And two things I remember from that experience in 2008 is number one many of the pastors connected moral causes to poverty rather than structural causes, right. So, coming back to neighborhood economics, many neighborhoods are failing because of structural causes food deserts, access to capital, discriminatory lending practices, predatory insurance rates those are the structural things that the private economies from flourishing. Many of the faith leaders connected moral causes to this economic depravity, and so that for me was a revelation that the praxis by which many congregations engage in, which is preaching moral perfection. I don't know what the correlation is Maybe someone's done the study on moral perfection versus wealth accumulation but in my travels on Wall Street I met a lot of people I won't consider to be moral exemplars, but who have prospered very much so in terms of wealth accumulation. So I think these are two different points. I think our desire for moral perfection might inform how we spend our wealth, but it doesn't necessarily dictate that I will be wealthy because I'm a perfect Christian.

Joel: 30:15

Right, yeah, exactly, and it's one thing that I'm just picking up from you a lot is you seem to be able to do this thing of integrating perceived paradoxes, things that most people would hold as opposites, but you're able to hold the two of them together in the same time and say, instead of saying it's an either or choice, it can be a both, and yeah, I think it's in the book.

Sidney : 30:41

Right, we have to be in the world, but not of the world. Right? We live in a material reality, and in that reality there's a system that is not designed for human flourishing, right? I think Jesus says in the Lord's Prayer Thy kingdom come on earth as is in heaven. And so we're not waiting for this new kingdom, but we are seeing a manifestation of this kingdom that is in heaven on earth, like in our lifetime, right In our existence. It's about helping to rethink systems, not living as they are, but redesigning them, reimagining them as they ought to be, not trying to make slavery more palatable, but getting rid of slavery altogether, right, yeah?

Joel: 31:27

Who'da thought.

Sidney : 31:30

Right. But I mean you know we can laugh now because you know fast forward. But there was a time where people were trying to to incrementally improve a oppressive condition as opposed to believing in a condition that people actually are free, right. And so I think we're always being challenged, at every age and every century, to think about new systems, new ways of being, new ways of engaging, new ways of living that is more equitable and just for all people.

Joel: 32:01

Yeah, and I guess what's coming to mind to me too, is that you know the reality that during the abolitionist times you did have people of faith on both sides of that issue who were arguing against each other, both quoting the same Bible, to kind of get at completely opposite things. The faith tradition that I came out of was traditionally abolitionist and something I was always very proud of as a young boy coming up, but I also kind of saw like there was definitely a lot of creeping in of things that were opposed to that, and so, from my perspective at least, things like you know nationalism, wealth, supremacy, you know some of these kinds of things and I'm curious, from your perspective and having such a broad understanding of all of these different issues, how can churches and faith groups kind of kind of make sure that they stay true to who they are and not be so influenced by the outside culture that they're in in that way while still being, you know, in the world?

Sidney : 33:03

So when I was in seminary, I remember my sociology religion professor said that you always have to do your sociology before you do your theology, and that's parallel to sort of, before you prepare a dish, make sure that dishes are clean really well, right, because you could end up contaminating the dish you're preparing because you didn't clean the dishes well, or you may end up getting some flavors and some spices that you didn't intend to include in this dish you're preparing. I think our theology is the same way. We bring a particular social conditioning right to our theology and then God begins to reflect more of our own personal imagination than the God of Abraham, isaac and Jacob informing our understanding of creation. Right, I think we live in that tension, and our country has a long history of how Christianity was used as a tool for oppression and dehumanization, even going back to the Crusades. I mean, you know, one could interpret, you know, god's sovereignty in many different ways, and yet that's not the illustration Jesus gives when he comes on earth among us as human right. And so I think you know there is a heavy burden to for all of us individually and then all of us collectively, to examine how our social conditioning is influencing our belief systems and how we relate to one another.

Sidney : 34:45

And what always fascinates me is, oftentimes, when you engage in dialogue among fellow Christians, we're less inclined to interpret the book and more inclined to defend our doctrinal positions. Right, this is how Presbyterians think? This is how Methodists think, this is how Baptists think. Right, this is how Evangelicals think. And rather than saying, well, how do we interpret Paul? How do we interpret, you know, mark? Or how do we interpret John? Let's wrestle with this thing together. I find oftentimes, people are unwilling to challenge traditional belief systems that are more dogmatic because of it's what their particular faith has ascribed to and less about well, how is that being lived out? How are people experiencing that? Right? So, yeah, I think we've got some work to do, and Ecumenical and Interfaith Dialogue helps us to do that.

Joel: 35:43

Absolutely. Another one of those paradoxes that I'm noticing from your work is you've mentioned the structure. You mentioned making sure those plates are clean, but when it comes to actually also cooking the dish and I know you like to cook, I love to cook too I think part of that cooking is some of your work in leadership development. I guess what has been some of the most important leadership development lessons you've learned in first and in your journey as becoming a leader, but then also in helping develop other leaders in the process.

Sidney : 36:19

Yeah, that's a great question. So in the business field, you know, there is a deep commitment to depressing or suppressing emotions, right, we try to do everything on a sort of quantitative basis, while ignoring the narratives that people come into this conversation with. Right, I think what I've learned from my theological training and serving as a pastor is sometimes people do things that just simply don't make sense, they're just not logical, that are not in their best interests, and so I've been trying to figure out well, why would that happen? And so part of the way I actually wrote the book is we start off with listening to the stories.

Sidney : 37:10

Sometimes people make irrational decisions because of previous trauma, and I've dug a little deeper on that to understand that our trauma is reserved in the rear portion of the rear third of our brain and is disconnected from the right frontal lobe, where the cognitive processing and where we write and have articulation of speech. There's a disconnect between our trauma and how we articulate who we are and how we wish to exist. The work of a therapist is to give you, give words to your trauma, right To be able to process. Sometimes that trauma is best expressed in a poem or song, and sometimes in words, right. And so when we create space for people to share their story, it begins to humanize themselves and allows them to begin to enter into rational dialogue. It's best seen in my experience in recovery meetings, where people can share the trauma that occurred prior to their addiction, trauma that occurred during their addiction, trauma that occurred in their recovery, and sometimes those stories get repeated quite a bit. But the telling of those stories is a healing process that inevitably positions them to now be able to make better decisions for their own flourishing and for the flourishing of those they're connected to.

Sidney : 38:44

Well. In the same way, even in the business community there are people that have experienced childhood trauma but somehow managed to subjugate that and become CEO of a Fortune 500 company. But they're emotional wrecks and they make decisions that are not best for the shareholders and surely not best for the stakeholders. And so now we're seeing in the business schools the importance of emotional intelligence. That wasn't so when I was in business school in the 90s, but now people are realizing even in the military we need military leaders that are emotionally balanced.

Sidney : 39:26

And so I think the church also has to make space for people's trauma and the things they've gone through. I mean, we've seen it very publicly, with the Catholic Church trying to suppress trauma that has occurred within the confines of our churches and that creates cognitive dissonance. And so if we're going to talk about social impact, impact investing, community transformation, we first have to make space for healing. And even if somebody is made it to the office of bishop or whatever comes after that, they too need space where they can take the collar off and be transparent about things that have happened in their life that may be keeping them from not being a good husband or a good son or a good father or a good brother, good neighbor, not to go too far with this. But Jesus says love your neighbor as yourself. Well, depending upon the trauma you've experienced in life, you may not even love yourself.

Joel: 40:25

Yeah, and that's the truth.

Sidney : 40:26

Yeah. And so then God says okay, I need you to take inventory of what you've been through, right? And then you see that with the man by the pool of the pheasant, he wants to talk about his trauma. And Jesus says would you be made whole? Right, I think that's. The invitation to us as leaders is, would you be made whole? But we've got to take inventory of the trauma that we carry. Sorry for being so long-winded.

Joel: 40:50

No, I'm so glad you did, because what you're really talking about, I think, is a release of shame and, ultimately, forgiveness, because ultimately, you know, I lived my whole life by forgive 70 times seven to other people but it was never taught to me because it was never taught to the people teaching me that forgiveness also needs to extend to yourself, because you're, the relationship you have with the rest of the world is a reflection of the relationship that you have with yourself, and if you don't actually forgive yourself, it's going to show up in all of these other ways. And to kind of bring it back to another paradox, the psychologist Carl Rogers says it this way, and I'm paraphrasing, but he says that it's only once we truly accept ourselves that we are able to change, and that change only happens in acceptance. And I just, I love everything that you're saying about that. I think it, I think it rings, rings absolutely true to my experience and to my own, you know.

Joel: 41:56

Finally, because I had some success in business, but man I was, there was something grinding inside of me that I was not willing to look at, and it wasn't until I finally went to therapy and I finally, you know, dropped the shame and was willing to admit the things that I didn't want to admit to anybody, things I hadn't told anybody for 10 years because I was scared of what it meant about me that I was actually able to go through a real connection to what we could call the divine and to something greater than myself and to who I actually am in a real way, and so I'm so glad that you, that you did go on about that, thank you. I do want to also just ask it. You know, I'm really pumped for the Neighborhood Economics Conference. I'm pumped to get to meet you there. I'm pumped for a lot of things about it. I know what I'm excited about it, but what are you most excited about it, and what does this conference mean to you, and, and from your perspective?

Sidney : 42:57

You know I applaud what Kevin and Rosalie are doing in, not just in their the work they do, but who they are as a couple, what they represent deep Southern roots, experienced, you know, some really racist ideologies has grown up and then confronting all of that you know, internally and externally, and I feel like they have a deep heart for neighborhood restoration, trying to to the best of their abilities, within their own limitations, be bridge builders and to make space for people who who are also traveling this road to meet each other. My first encounter with Kevin Rosalie at SoCAP was in 2019, just before the pandemic. The people I've met at that conference were like I believe it's Seth Goblin's book tribe. I was able to meet people in my tribe and I feel like Kevin Rosalie have created this space for people that are trying to navigate the waters of faith and social impact. That they've created that space for people to meet.

Joel: 44:23

Yeah, I love it and I love the key partnerships that are being brought together, partnerships again that you may not expect, that a lot of people wouldn't expect. And I'm really grateful for your time today, dr Reverend Sidney Williams Jr, really enlightening, heartfelt, wholehearted conversation that we got to have here with you today. And, yeah, if you have any last words, I'll take them, but if not, we can. We can kind of end it there.

Sidney : 44:53

You know, the last thing I'll say about specifically on the economics is I think and I'm just to talk about this country We've been attempting to solve this country's problems at a national level, but I think, while those efforts are noble and must continue, I think real impact happens at a neighborhood level. You know, block by block, neighbor by neighbor, and what I appreciate the work of Kevin Rosalie, by even moving neighborhood economics to different neighborhoods. It's getting people that would not otherwise be engaged in conversation to imagine what's possible, and you need someone to provide that catalyst Right. And so I think that's why so many of us answer the call to come to these neighborhood economics convenings, because we believe that it's our coming together creates a spark and that stirs the flame for new creation, new opportunities. So a big thanks to you and your work and big thanks to Kevin Rosalie for calling us together. Thank you, thanks. See you in San Antonio.